tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post2880324176572128619..comments2023-10-22T01:15:54.689+11:00Comments on Games Lecture: Lecture 7: 22Apr2010 Design Dimensions for Exertion GamesFlorian 'Floyd' Muellerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17545757857242519792noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-46127373351341915002010-04-29T14:07:01.712+10:002010-04-29T14:07:01.712+10:00Some of the cards seemed irrelevant to our games, ...Some of the cards seemed irrelevant to our games, expecially for those who had already formulated an idea and were using the cards for tweaking rather than coming up with a whole new idea. I guess this wasn't really a problem as there was an option to slot the card under "N/A" but perhaps the cards could use more simple/general descriptions so they can apply to a wider variety of situations.<br /><br />I did find the images helpful for those which had a confusing or elaborate description but didn't take notice of them for the cards with clearer descriptions.<br /><br />I think you presented the cards to us well and from hearing you vocalise the differences between each card I was able to understand them to a much greater extent.<br /><br />Good luck with your research, I have found it very interesting!Tim Jeffshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14525678880503105144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-13091738021322396752010-04-29T05:39:13.975+10:002010-04-29T05:39:13.975+10:00nice lecture..
Learn somethings new that I never b...nice lecture..<br />Learn somethings new that I never been thought before..<br />The design dimension things make me realize that so many factors can affect the games and make it different..<br />hopefully these design dimension can make our game become better..Tatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17846576791530492178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-24514186857803168702010-04-28T19:04:26.633+10:002010-04-28T19:04:26.633+10:00Hey, another great lecture (it’s starting to feel ...Hey, another great lecture (it’s starting to feel like we say “great lecture” as a way of greeting now, or breaking the commenting ice)<br /><br />The cards helped out a lot when it came to understanding how to alter our games, whether it was for improvement, or simply to evolve a game for the sake of it. What made it easier was that the cards gave definable characteristics of exertion games, so rather than thinking “how do I make it more physical?” we could pin point several aspects of the game and the ‘player experience’, and alter one factor, rather than trying to pull something new out of thin air and risk changing everything.<br /><br />I think another way of implementing the cards would be to split a class in half (with several groups on each side) and give them the task of changing a certain aspect of an already made exertion game. Give one half of the class access to the cards, and the other half no cards, and see how the two sides alter the game (I reckon there’d be a interesting difference in how they asses what changes to make)<br /><br />I also think that there should be come way to use the information we get from the cards and represent it in another form, like a graph or chart or something that’s visual and accessible.<br /><br />Maybe similar to personality tests?<br /><br />So if say, there are 4 key elements to exertion games, make a 4 quadrant model on an x-y axis of 1 – 10, neg1 – neg10.<br />Then instead of having ‘plus’ and ‘minus’ to rate the various cards, use a scaling system of 1 – 10.<br />If 3 cards relate to Quadrant One, you can tally up the results from each card and get the medium.<br />Example: card 1 = 3, card 2 = 2, card 3 = 4<br />So (3 + 2 + 4) / 3 = 3<br />So for Quadrant One the value is 3, (co-ordinates -3,3), which would mean what ever aspect of gaming element Quadrant One represented, would be not be very present in that particular game.<br /><br />I dunno… it’s just an idea, I hope it made sense.deearnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06745353677760642494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-13337373547584089172010-04-28T11:55:52.323+10:002010-04-28T11:55:52.323+10:00Really interesting lecture Floyd, the dimensions a...Really interesting lecture Floyd, the dimensions are very fascinating. Personally I think the dimensions are basically perfect and they don't need to be changed - I found the format they are laid out in absolutely fine but they could be altered in some respects for more clarity. They seem to cover all the bases and are a really excellent, easy to understand guideline for starting and refining games and something I think every game maker should have. Well done Floyd!Alex W.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-69955341852957670472010-04-28T11:07:29.480+10:002010-04-28T11:07:29.480+10:00The idea of dimensions helps me think.
I had never...The idea of dimensions helps me think.<br />I had never thought about if sharing a ball between players or not, makes difference.<br /><br />It will be nice if there are templates for certain group of people.<br />Like, template of dimensions for core gamers,<br />beginners, non-players, male, female, kids...etc.<br />So that creators can refer to the template when they are aiming at certain type of customers.Junki Wnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-75157775736392225902010-04-28T04:09:47.495+10:002010-04-28T04:09:47.495+10:00It was a really cool lecture, I found the cards re...It was a really cool lecture, I found the cards really useful (in tweaking ideas as that is the context we experienced this system in) as a safeguard to assessing where all areas of a game stand so that none are over-looked. This sort of thing is great for someone like me who tends to get caught up in what they're focussing on and slowly becoming more and more tunnel visioned.<br />The only feedback I feel I can offer (as I mentioned in the lecture) is that the pictures are great in conjunction with the text and arrows on the cards, but they NEED to be seen by everyone simultaneously for them to be as useful as they should be. As far as the points that others have brought up, I agree with those who made the point that the "+ and -" system does add a bias in people's decisions about what to change/improve, in the favour of the + side. Whether it's because the + side seems more obviously fun or if subconsciously we associate + with better, I'm not sure but I do think it is there.<br />Other than those things, I really like where your research is going and best of luck with it Floyd!Joel Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11169539142928145273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-35051854699965486362010-04-27T22:44:55.984+10:002010-04-27T22:44:55.984+10:00I think the cards would be excellent guidelines fo...I think the cards would be excellent guidelines for making a game, however I see people using them more as a checklist as discussed in the lecture. I think it would be more effective if for example, you used it like a colour wheel.<br /><br />EG. 3 Primary colours (so 3 main points) which phase out into different colours like purple, brown e.t.c (so Physical => physical contact, physcial enviroment e.t.c). This way it might cut down on the checklist feel, because you cant really have a checklist of say, three items. Other then that i found it interesting to listen too, I'm still unsure of how effective it would be to apply it to any of your games, casual games are usually the simplistic of games, these design dimensions may over complicate and create too much mess for some games, things that i loved about the simpler games might be lost in the want to achieve these 'goals' created by the dimensions. <br /><br />Still great to listen too, I think they apply to more sophisticated games myself, I personally wouldn't be using them to design a game like Tetris for example :/Steffiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13649498887986417903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-30307973182698913572010-04-27T19:57:19.400+10:002010-04-27T19:57:19.400+10:00Hi Floyd! Here is Team Ossome's video! Sorry i...Hi Floyd! Here is Team Ossome's video! Sorry it wasn't earlier, we had uploading issues!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zoZOR76mzgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-16710629539392155852010-04-26T23:50:23.443+10:002010-04-26T23:50:23.443+10:00Once again Floyd you have managed to take the idea...Once again Floyd you have managed to take the idea of game design a whole lot deeper. Like most I found the “Design Dimension Cards” to be a useful tool in improving a game. Having said this I do feel they need some minor tweaking if you are aiming them at an audience of our age, or better yet, our level of knowledge.<br /> <br />To start I found the descriptions a little overwhelming, not because of the language used but because some ideas became puzzled with others and there didn’t seem to be any real structure in helping the designer know where to start. I think that if the cards are going to be helpful in designing a game they need to have an order or maybe something outlining their different levels of significance. I really liked someone’s suggesting of designing a flow chart that branches off in the different directions that the games may take. Defiantly something you should look into.<br /> <br />Don’t get rid of the pictures!! Although some people didn’t like the images included on the cards I found them extremely useful in understanding the idea. If your book is aimed at designers I agree that visual representations are critical for the success of the theory.<br /><br />The positive and negative bar works well however I think some people were restricted to thinking that their game had to strive for the positive end in order to be successful. This didn’t allow some to see that a balanced game may work better.<br /><br />The secondary movement card was easily my favourite because not only was it simple to comprehend but it is certainly a key factor that is left aside far too often. For our swimming game this was definitely what we tried to achieve with the movement on the balance board to avoid the shark.<br /><br />Despite these minor things the cards did prove extremely useful when completing the group task. We got some very helpful advice from the other team and I hope we were able to return the favour. I also hope I haven’t totally misunderstood your theory Floyd and that this is of some help to you. All the best for your work on the book!! <br /><br />PS: Sorry about the late post guys didn’t realise we had to comment on this lecture.<br />CheersDean Bickerdikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-22515678649048013462010-04-26T22:07:18.156+10:002010-04-26T22:07:18.156+10:00awesome lecture!
This lecture really help us to im...awesome lecture!<br />This lecture really help us to improve our game<br />because our game very successful in the last lecture, and lots of people love it !we want to improve this game, and this lecture really help us and tell me which part we ignored.Yuanliu Zhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11758440945107145192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-77854974965035385862010-04-26T21:34:40.383+10:002010-04-26T21:34:40.383+10:00The flash cards are very useful for people such as...The flash cards are very useful for people such as myself, because I can never come up with an idea on the spot. The dimensions are perfect for producing further ideas to elaberate on as well as a guide. <br /><br />My brother is a massive victim of creating groovey moves while playing Guitar Hero. It makes the game more fun and not as repetitive. Adding a fancy move also makes it seem like a live experience towards the game. <br /><br />Best luck to your research book. :DAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-17428064745560934432010-04-26T20:56:24.331+10:002010-04-26T20:56:24.331+10:00I found that the practical, real world examples of...I found that the practical, real world examples of games that used the dimensions really helped me understand what each dimension meant and how these can be used as a general guide to determine what the target audience or market is for our own games.<br /><br />When designing a game, I believe you cannot make a game that is going to suit every person therefore it is important to have an idea as to who is more likely to play your game. The dimensions therefore are not strict rules and there is no 'right' or 'wrong' but were given more to understand how games focus on different elements. <br /><br />Floyd used Guitar Hero as an example for the Intensity Interpretation dimension and this was very effective in helping me understand what the card actually meant. <br /><br />Floyd explained that in Guitar Hero, the intensity & physical effort used by the player whilst playing the guitar, gives people watching you play the guitar a different experience, even though the computer console does not interprete or measure intensity or how hard you play.<br /><br />This was an excellent example, it helped me gain a better understanding of how each dimension related to designing our own games, and focus on making our own games better or, as Floyd says, more 'awesome'.jayden.ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00701016343427310250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-57985000607334744412010-04-25T18:59:55.357+10:002010-04-25T18:59:55.357+10:00hiyo,
I think the dimensions for exertion games w...hiyo,<br /><br />I think the dimensions for exertion games work really well to help guide the design of a game. While our group discussed each card in reference to our game i found the dimensions helped us to work out what our game might be lacking, and what could be added to improve it. <br />On the topic of trying to make 'presets' for different categories of physical games, and set outlines for designers I think the system should be left how it is enabling designers/teams to decide how they want to approach each dimension and incorporate it into their games. <br />I think the wording of a few cards could be improved but apart from that each dimension seems pretty solid in theory to me. <br />Pretty nice work on it so far Floyd...<br /><br />-Joshua TatangeloAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-22125537995811414922010-04-25T11:53:50.389+10:002010-04-25T11:53:50.389+10:00I found the dimensions really helpful, by being aw...I found the dimensions really helpful, by being aware of the elements that are in games, it makes it so much easier, faster and most likely better to come up with new games and improve existing ones. I found dimensions jump-started my thoughts in a way, that most cards got me thinking of new ideas and/or ways to improve them and got me thinking about different aspects of games that I had not considered before and now seem integral.<br />like other people said, the cards can be a little confusing with the -+ thing and also I found myself rereading some cards because I fond them slightly hard to work out or they where similar to others but I'm sure if you used them longer than we did after one time you would get pretty familiar with each dimension. I didn't really use the pictures on the cards at all, I found myself just reading the name then the description then repeating this till I got the idea.Simon Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01843914885970189180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-9363341659653843772010-04-25T09:58:42.152+10:002010-04-25T09:58:42.152+10:00Hey,
From reading the comments posted, I g...Hey,<br /> <br /> From reading the comments posted, I guess my opinion of the cards is in line with what most people are saying:<br /> It was a great lecture.<br /> The amout of cards is just right.<br /> They're a really useful and clear way of looking at our games for refining and moving beyond "What can we add to our game?" to "What could we add to our game, to emphasis or draw out more of a certain quality our game has or needs?"<br /> The card descriptions can be a bit hard to understand sometimes.<br /> Just as a small point/suggestion: The '+' and '-' side seem to conotate 'good' and 'bad', so maybe changing it to 'left' and 'right' could improve it.<br /><br /> Just personally, I'd say I hardly ever used the pictures on the cards. I'd first look at the title, then the description (sometimes a second time closely), then look at what the + and - sides were - the context to the game, and then if I still didn't know what it was asking I would consider the pictures, but usually I would have got it by then.<br /><br /> Thanks for the great lecture!Caitlin Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08476338566285336199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-77444574993883270892010-04-25T03:31:48.280+10:002010-04-25T03:31:48.280+10:00Hey there,
The lecture this week was pretty aweso...Hey there,<br /><br />The lecture this week was pretty awesome,<br /><br />My thoughts on the dimensions were nothing short of fantastic, Floyd, well done and thank you, they were very helpful toward my team. However; with every first try at something there is always room for improvement.<br /><br />To improve the dimensions:<br />- Let there be colour, I can't tell you how confusing different shades of grey are ;)<br />- The pictures should be bigger<br />- The descriptions were great, but can be reworded for less confusion<br /><br />Those were my main gripes about them, the whole idea (as I've mentioned) is brilliant.<br /><br />What should stay:<br />- The whole concept<br />- The amount of cards were just right to grab just about every aspect of a game<br /><br />Keep up the good work, Floyd!Matt Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09851154796305150211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-11397879769490847542010-04-24T21:19:21.949+10:002010-04-24T21:19:21.949+10:00Hey,
Liked the lecture this week, to be honest I ...Hey,<br /><br />Liked the lecture this week, to be honest I expected it to be pretty boring after reading through that form, but it was a nice surprise.<br /><br />On the dimensions, all in all I liked them. They were useful and not overly complicated. Also, you explained them really well. It makes sense that you'd have a good grasp of them considering you conceived them, but I was still pretty impressed with how well you explained them. And sometimes without it I wouldn't have understood that dimension.<br /><br />As for cons, well I already told you about how I felt that having each dimension seemed like a pro, but besides that, and I'm thinking you'd change this some time anyway, but aesthetically it'd be cool if the images were consistent. Not necessarily in style; they'd look good if they were but maybe they wouldn't express some dimensions as well as they could, but just if they were all the same size.<br /><br />Oh and also I didn't feel like the cards were rules, which is awesome. Remember that set of rules put together about game design in general? That received a fair bit of negativity, especially from within the industry, because they were constraining creativity. But these points sort of feel more like "Oh this dimension's really what our game's missing. So to p it we need to do blank. We could do that by doing blank".<br /><br />Congrats om the progress so far, and yeah, goodluck.Shaun Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03314114136760683432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-18879364868262322262010-04-24T18:28:09.300+10:002010-04-24T18:28:09.300+10:00It was an awesome presentation for us game industr...It was an awesome presentation for us game industry students. My feedback is given as below:<br />Those cards show the crucial elements of polishing and realizing a game idea which used to be sort of secret behind those popular games to me. The presentation gave the answer to the question "why people keen on this game". I did enjoy the idea exchange part between our team and others, which put those dimensions into specific examples, and now it was quite clear on the parts that we shall improve our game. They are not guide line to figure out an awesome idea but tool and backup to control your audience. (Am I right to say so?)<br />Well, I had to claim that those phrases did challenge my knowledge of language…I felt blur about some of those though most were explained quite well by examples. However I found that you add points on those aspects which involves more physical movements, like the secondary movement card ( this is my favorite card btw, I like it because it left me impression on the 2 different type of game you made example for us, and the idea about cheering up the audience by lifting the guitar was awesome). So in this case, those skill-required games which there won’t be more fun to get extra score for secondary movement, will they lose audience because they lack secondary movement? <br />So far I feel that the exertion game is somehow little bit like sports game, not those traditional games like RPG, RTS etc…what if I was working on those games, could these dimensions still work on them? And also, I would like to know if those “real” game designers (who has already taking the career in game industry) would take these dimensions into consider when they generate a game idea?Momohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06961447390995103008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-64679994837973744012010-04-24T13:33:10.571+10:002010-04-24T13:33:10.571+10:00Great Lecture Floyd!
I think its great that you ar...Great Lecture Floyd!<br />I think its great that you are researching into this to release a book that is going to help the industry to bring more and better exertion games. <br /><br />I cant wait to see the response when companies read and have your book in their selves!<br /><br />With the cards, In my opinion, get a good Graphic designer to remake the cards (there should be a single word in bold in each card to remember), make a small logo for each in a far corner so the user than indentify each, and in the back on each card give a good description and explanation on each. Also write good known examples of one extreme to the other extreme so the user can connect easier to that the card explains.<br /><br />I had a lot of fun using your cards when analising both games in the diferent teams, and what way we can improve them in many diferent levels. We obtained a lot of fresh ideas and faster than any other method I know my self. But to say that we would have never gotten this ideas withought them is another thing, I think its a time factor more than a posibility factor.<br /><br />Best luck with the book!Francisco Casares (Paco)noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-79886392822875874772010-04-24T13:32:16.137+10:002010-04-24T13:32:16.137+10:00Fascinating lecture Floyd! It was a pleasure to ta...Fascinating lecture Floyd! It was a pleasure to take part in the activity and offer feedback on the design dimensions. All the best in the development of the 'book'; rest assured I will grab a copy as soon as it's published! =]<br /><br />To revise on what I said at the end of the lecture, I believe the dimensions were a great way of allowing us designers to refocus on the essence of the game; the approach to 'fun' if you will. I think many can agree with me, and many have also said previously, that we tend to concentrate too much on technology and implementation, and less on how the player(s) are enjoying the game. Furthermore, it allows us to consider how we can manipulate that, and intentionally change the way players are 'supposed' to enjoy the game. As I said, families, and children in particular, will never truly appreciate the time and effort put into implementing the game and the advanced tech behind it; rather, they will always scrutinise the level of fun they experienced, and how they achieved that experience.<br /><br />I also agree with the suggestion of a graph as proposed by other students. I think it's an excellent way to visually map your findings, and possibly realise a 'pattern' or 'connection' between various shapes and angles on the graph. I also mentioned in the lecture the possibility of different 'personalities' and 'types' of the target audience being defined, as per shape of the graph; this could greatly assist marketing for the game, and also allow designers to give the market what they want. Graphing personalities in some way with the aid of the various dimensions could also open up a whole new door for research in psychology and social patterns.<br /><br />All in all I truly believe you're on the right track Floyd. The cards certainly helped my group to rediscover what it is specifically that we want out of our game. It has given us a ground, or a foundation, from which we can mold and develop our concept.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-35670439195936889612010-04-23T23:18:17.403+10:002010-04-23T23:18:17.403+10:00Awesome lecture! I found the cards to be incredibl...Awesome lecture! I found the cards to be incredibly helpful, especially in regards to tweaking some flaws in our game idea. Thank you so much for going to the effort of making all those cards for us! Being a class of artists I think it's safe to say visuals are key. Even though we couldn't see the pictures very well on the smaller cards I found the visuals projected on the big screen very helpful. I think that when putting the 14 design dimensions into a book, or just something more elaborate in general, it would be good to incorporate a lot of visuals. When you used people and the whiteboard when explaining one of the cards I felt as though I could recall it quicker then the others. <br />I thought it was good to get feedback from other groups, I wish we had done so with our first game idea.. It's so funny to see what people just automatically think of when you're telling them an idea, things that didn't even cross your mind. I don't think the amount of cards is an issue, they are all targetted to a different aspect of the game and to try to squeeze two into one, I feel, would convalute things. The plus and minus CAN be misleading if not properly explained so unless you want to put up a permanent disclaimer on said cards it is probably best to substitue the plus and minus for something else. <br />Thanks again! :)Cynthia Snoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-55141706510193729242010-04-23T21:00:25.795+10:002010-04-23T21:00:25.795+10:00Thanks for sharing your research with us Floyd! I ...Thanks for sharing your research with us Floyd! I think that as a tool, not only to be used by game companies but also for teaching, the design dimensions are really great. However I think that after only the short introduction from you, and nothing to reference while we were working on the task both my group and the group we paired with struggled to remember what some of the cards where and also how to use them. We also got a bit confused using the plus and minus. I ended up just referring to it as 'more' and 'less' which might be a good way to replace them. Rather than giving us suggestions the other team simply asked us the questions on the card and waited for us to tell them what our game was like. In that respect it wasn't very useful foe generating new ideas.<br />While the system you have probably works fairly well for people already in the industry a slightly simpler version might be better for teaching new game design students. Also having the info to refer to as you are using the cards would be useful (I think you said you intended to do this anyway). <br />Anyway I was very impressed. :)Candynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-32589132801753824832010-04-23T17:55:02.469+10:002010-04-23T17:55:02.469+10:00i really like what we were doing with the cards
it...i really like what we were doing with the cards<br />it makes us know what we need to do for improving our game<br />and also makes us know what the important aspects of exertion games.<br />in my opinion , those card were really helpful unfortunately i didn't understand some of them .<br />and also i thx for the team that has given us a feedbacks ^^<br /><br />anyway , that was a good lecturefandi winatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489118361124415745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-33331901975451509372010-04-23T16:56:22.982+10:002010-04-23T16:56:22.982+10:00Informative stuff. The Design Dimensions are indee...Informative stuff. The Design Dimensions are indeed a useful tool for tweaking/modifying games.<br /><br />I don't quite agree with what people were saying about there being too much to remember, or the need to lower the card count.<br />There were a lot of cards with new terms and definitions on them that might seem a little hard to fully grasp initially, but that doesn't mean people won't memorize them in time.<br />You don't go to an art class and immediately learn all the theory behind creating artwork (unless you're awesome).Rhyl M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09662290729274743953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8840029558919433184.post-88332921932745739982010-04-23T15:30:53.566+10:002010-04-23T15:30:53.566+10:00G'day Floyd.
Being completely honest; loved th...G'day Floyd.<br />Being completely honest; loved the lecture and the way you teach us how to think... <br />I immensity enjoy going to the lectures and once again you have helped me view design a different way. In this lecture in particular; how to add a structure to your concept and focus on different areas/ideas and how to refine them to determine what particular audience the game concept would be fitted to. Having such diagrams and visual data helped out quite a lot at adding focus and structure to our concepts especially us students having a visual background.<br />The only criticism I was going to note has now already been mentioned by Luke above referencing the plus and minus which can be misleading... But that can easily be changed to something more concrete as Luke said which I would consider...<br />We have and will make reference in the refinement of our game concept we are currently working on to the cards you gave us Floyd. There great! :D Nice work :).Mikey Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04937550878881908783noreply@blogger.com